Let’s just forget it.

Hey…whatever handy narrative works for you.

I work with vulnerable young people, I don’t expect praise or respect for doing it from anyone except my colleagues and the young people I work with and initially I found Banks’ harping on about it superficially egotistical. Some of that was just the fact that I was supremely grumpy when I was reading the article. Some of it may be the editing of the article and how Banks comes across. When you’ve achieved what he’s achieved you’re entitled to a bit of slack when it comes to self-aggrandisement.

The later part of the interview about how UR operates as an alternative outlet for young people in communities in the thrall of drugs and crime was the most inspiring. His words on travel and the way travelling with UR has broadened the horizons of young people demonstrates exactly how electronic, or any other type of music can operate as an agent of social change. The way he talks about kids respecting him for travelling to Norway. The fact that UR subscribes to a no-bullshit meritocratic PR philosophy only sweetens it but it will always be the music that makes Banks a hero to me.

Although I’ve just re-read the article and have to say I have no idea why I was so down on Banks on the first reading. He’s a geniune and passionate advocate for his community in the broadest terms and an inspiration to anyone interested in music and how it operates as a social force (as Richard Brophy mentioned on his blog this week)
I must have been having a stinker of a day!

As to Hawtin, I’ve seen him DJ a load of times and he’s worth the (occasionally extortionate) entry price- I wouldn’t be a mixmag reader so I’m not really all that bothered about what company he owns/invests in etc. That wee handheld yoke looked nifty enough but personally i’ll stick to the technics and the shitey two channel mixer thanks.

Yes and no, however, when it comes to dance music I’m gonna have to say yes. Both Banks and Hawtin represent two completely different types: Banks with his community-oriented spirit and Hawtin with his more capitalistic approach. But I think they’re both doing something right for the scene: Banks standing firmy behind the UR ideology, focusing more on quality rather than quantity (plus taking care of his “peeps”) while Hawtin’s pushing technology forward. We can argue for days who’s right or wrong and why. Like I said - they’re both doing something right. So that’s why “different strokes for different folks”.

@Tom and As regards Richie Hawtin, I definitely see where you’re coming from Tom, his music does nothing for me and I own about two M_nus records.

I’ve yet to see him DJ but by all accounts and by the sets I’ve heard he seems pretty good, and it certainly seems like he has to make a real effort with that, to buy and edit old and new records.

But for me an artist is anyone people deem to make art, what I think of them is not really important. Though I do consider Hawtin an artist. I think it should be a democratic term. Even if I didn’t though, my opinion is not enough to deny anyone that status.

@Sotek:

Myentire point, the entire reason I wrote the post was that I don’t believe it’s as simple a split as Pipecock’s definition. So I think it’s you missing the point.

You say “you may care about the music, but others could be looking for something more than that”. Why is what they seek something “more”? I just wrote this entire post trying to explain why I don’t think it’s something “more”, why one positive activity can not be rated as higher than another. Did you even read those parts? If you really do believe that it’s “different strokes for different folks” then surely each side of this approach to art is just as valid? Both because of the eternal truth of “different strokes for different strokes” (was it Shakespeare who first used this in in an argument? Or Oscar Wilde?) and the reasons cited in the post.

@Cahony: Happy Birthday! Plus I agree with you, though I am starting to think pretty much everyone complaining about “mnml” etc just means M_nus and their imitators.

I largely agree about the Hawtin hating though. I saw him in Glasgow at the end of September and it was one of the best sets I have ever heard in my many years of clubbing.

Also, I’m not sure that I agree entirely that “Music is about the sounds coming out of the speakers” - perhaps this is true for techno/dance music that for other forms (and I say this as someone who listens almost exclusively to techno at the moment). For me an appreciation of the skill of the individual who produced or created that music is a minimum addition to this. Also, in the case of live music the performance is a huge factor (again linked with the skill) - especially in something like an orchestral recital where it’s massively about the interaction of skilled individuals.

In particular when breezing through the comments on that post I was struck by one point you touch on above; “…for the sort of “minimal” that only people who dislike “minimal” are discussing now.”

The minimal backlash seems to be so self-perpetuating and blind now that it disregards any development or evolution in the sounds put out by ‘minimal’ labels in the past year.

now that is the best argument i’ve heard against my little piece there, but it’s also the most wrong because we agree. my point was that richie doesn’t really make “art” anymore, he makes technical demos for the products he is pushing. and it’s not unfairly singling him out as a straw man, he has been the leader of this movement since Decks, EFX, and 909 if not earlier. it got really silly with the “closer to the edit” and the whole time period around the beginning of final scratch, and now it just seems like he is pushing product and nothing more. there isn’t really art to it anymore than the guy making background music for commercials is a great artist.

the basic idea is when mike banks is making a record, you can feel where his mind and feelings are! and it doesnt even have to be about being “charitable” though i dont think that is what mike is about anyway, i certainly don’t think he came across that way in the interview. it just has to do with the purity of expression, and i think the purity of what UR does is rather evident in every single way. with richie and his little empire, i feel like the same thing is evident: his music sounds forced and overly technical. it might not be so easy to say that if he hadn’t once come from at least a slightly different place artistically (though he has always been very calculating and business like from the beginning).