RA095 Kevin Saunderson
First things first, I haven’t heard this mix. I don’t have much interest in it except for two reasons. One, because it’s interesting that Saunderson (like Carl Craig) is playing so much European house music. In fact it’s even more interesting, because Saunderson playing David Guetta and Fedde Le Grande suggests he has an even bigger love for mainstream European house, the sort of stuff that’s viewed with disdain by many.
Secondly, it’s funny to see Kevin Saunderson say he uses CDs and Ableton to DJ. I have to say, I love seeing artists contradict the all too easily prefabricated image that is erected of them. Saunderson is a “Detroit Techno Legend” and so of course he must fight tooth and nail for vinyl, despise all European house and techno, and be the ultimate purist in all his musical selections. Newsflash, he actually is nothing like that, nor should he have to be.
It shouldn’t even be surprising. Fans fight the wars in such a partisan way and yet artists are probably way more liberal in their views. So Kevin Saunderson actually isn’t a purist. Just as countless minimal artists probably use hardware and hate digital downloads. The prefabs we create for artists are shoddy.
It’s interesting too to read the RA thread about this mix. It’s as if the Pope had just appeared in public with a used Durex stuck to his robes. Some people are outraged at the heresy, and others are all “Oh perhaps it got stuck to the Holy Father by mistake as he sat on a park bench!” or “A condom? Don’t be silly! That’s just a transparent balloon with some fish paste stuck to it, his holiness was probably at a mariner’s birthday party and spilled a vol-au-vent”
It’s just the same with Kevin Saunderson. Some people are outraged, others cite “Belleville infallibility”. Personally, I fail to see how it’s a surprise that the guy whose most famous records are “Good Life” and “Big Fun” actually likes slightly naff party music! I mean come on, the clue is in the titles!
I think the key point here is one that should be pretty obvious, “cheesiness” has no skin colour.
jon wrote:
I listen to mix, i don’t like mix
Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 11:02 pm ¶
Ronan wrote:
there was a mix?
Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 11:14 pm ¶
Ciaran wrote:
When he purchased the tracks off beatport, why didn’t he go back to his library and check the names and record them as the tracklist instead of making a point of the “unknown numbered tracks” beatport provide on all downloads. Seems he was having a dig to me… Anyway, yeah it’s started something on the forum, if people don’t like it they shouldn’t listen to it. There are 094 other mixes..
Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 11:33 pm ¶
tom/pipecock wrote:
saunderson just sucks at deejaying, i don’t see why any of this would be news to anyone who paid attention to him for more than the past 15 seconds. he has been cashing in on euro-rave crap for years. i’m glad you like it so much.
Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 1:33 am ¶
Ellot-Emm wrote:
For what it’s worth Ronan, Saunderson has *always* been the “impurist” of the Belleville Three, the one with the most pop instincts and ear for the latest trends in Europe. Look at the straight up commercial appeal of the Inner City stuff, not to mention dropping tracks on his old X-Mix from producers like Deep Dish and Trancesetters. Hell, in the early ’90s KMS even released hardcore records, complete with breakbeats, rave stabs and hoover sounds. His DJing hasn’t changed much at all, to be honest - other than the CDs, which he uses primarily because he’s got a bad knee and can’t lug all those records around. The people complaining really need to chill and realize that there is more to life than the latest 18-minute Ricardo jam.
Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 3:50 am ¶
Ronan wrote:
that makes sense Elliott.
Tom: interesting point, well made.
Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 8:50 am ¶
tobi wrote:
first of all: that a dj is playing with digital stuff, ableton and/or cds instead of vinyl shouldn’t be a measurement for her/his quality in djing at all. elliot already points out, that it’s much easier for one to carry a laptop, a few cds and those kind of things than lug bags of records.
second, i neither know saudernson that much, nor i like this mix, simply because of the reason, that it’s not that style i prefer to play or to listen to. but at the end it’s the music, and not the music and the one who’s playing it, right? this thing sounds to me like a saunderson bashing, correct me, if i’m wrong.
Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 9:42 am ¶
Jake wrote:
This isn’t really a ‘newsflash’. Detroit & Chicago producers have had a long relationship with European music, right back to Kraftwerk influencing Juan Atkins and Derrick May playing Depeche Mode records in the early 80s. As Elliott points out, Saunderson made a load of ravey techno in the early 90s - records like ‘Pump The Move’ as E-Dancer helped to kickstart jungle. More recently, Juan Atkins was playing Mauro Picotto records, and Saunderson’s mix from last year for Matrix leaned heavily on the east European techno sound, eg Umek. Kanzyani and so on. To be honest, I’m not mad about either the RA mix or the commercial mix CD Saunderson did, but there is no doubt that the links between DEtroit and Europe have always been really strong. It’s well-known that Juan Atkins wanted to create a black version of Kraftwerk as Cybotron. JUst one question though - did Saunderson use his bluetooth earpiece to do this mix?
Thanks
Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:37 am ¶
chrisdisco wrote:
i think you made the big mistake of reading a RA thread and expecting the discussion not to be rubbish. i never played close attention to the forums there, but i have avoided them like the plague since the one about dubfire’s ‘ribcage’…
Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 11:16 am ¶
E Huster wrote:
We had the (mis)fortune of seeing him play at Secretsundaze at the Coronet last Thursday.
To say he lifted the main room when he came on is an understatement and for the first half hour it seemed that he was really firing on all cylenders……but after a while the mixing worsened and the tracks got cheesier and to be honest pretty flat.
He pretty much killed the buzz in the main room which had be created by Tobi Neumann and the always on point hosts Giles and James. It just felt like old Kev could’nt be bothered.
Wonder what his fee was?
On the other had the Monza room was pretty firing all night and Pedro blew me away at the end. That guy has some tracks i’ve never heard out. Real special.
Maybe that thing in Kev’s ear is a hearing aid? What……?
Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 5:21 pm ¶
JacobW wrote:
Chris, the thing about the forums is they’re only shit because people (like, I dunno, you) don’t post intelligently on them. I’d love for the RA forums to take off a bit more, particularly because ILM is so useless for dance music these days and everyone on DJHistory is about 85 and only wants to listen to balearic snoozefests.
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 7:14 am ¶
JacobW wrote:
Meaning I don’t think you post stupidly, but that you don’t post…
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 7:14 am ¶
chinstroker wrote:
I saw Kevin and Stacey (Pullen) play back to back last year and they were both brilliant.
Yes, Kevin played some electro-house tinged stuff, but mostly just banging techno. One I remember is Devilfish - “Manalive”, which uses the “Good Life” melody sample, and forgoes the cheesy vocal altogether.
I thought he was great; first decent DJ I’ve seen using Ableton, most of them are dead boring. The crowd was fairly small and knowledgeable, and Saunderson sent pretty much everyone ballistic.
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 10:47 am ¶
Y wrote:
Come on, what kind of guy takes a photo portrait with a bluetooth headset and thinks it’s cool! Nope, Saunderson definitely doesn’t deserve the title minimal artist. Let’s call things as we see them.
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 12:43 pm ¶
Marc wrote:
This might bring disdain….but I kinda liked the mix. Oh well.
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 1:58 pm ¶
tomo wrote:
the fact that he uses ableton, cd’s , vinyl, it doesnt matter, its the music that he plays is what is important;
wasn’t really that surprised by the selection that he played and i wasnt too impressed. the first 20 min were ok and then i just got bored. i haven’t many current US dj’s that have impressed me.
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 10:42 pm ¶
chrisdisco wrote:
@jacobw: i’ve posted in the past, but i gave up but the responses and discussion were completely not worth the effort.
case in point - have a look through the Saunderson thread on RA. my fellow ssg pete - posting as disconnect - attempts to get an intelligent discussion going and the general response has been more of the ‘detroit = soul = good’ garbage.
anyway, one useful thing this has done is it has motivated me to write something on detroit and origins.
Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 2:05 am ¶
jeremy wrote:
lol at chris. you’ve been spamming RA forums for months now with links to your blog. You’re part of the problem not the solution!
Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 7:15 pm ¶
jeremy wrote:
No offense, Chris. But the issue with the RA forums is how to get rid of the people who hold the other posters and the forum in general in contempt and only use it to generate publicity for themselves by posting me-me-me progspam, event spam, or mixspam. or in your case blogspam. So yeah, jacob is right. And it’s happening, and it will happen more I hope - remember it’s come a long way (18 months ago people weren’t even talking about music in the RA forums).
As for the KS discussion and mix, it was always going to be a discussion of Detroit techno & soul & authenticity vs selling out & Euro & fake. That’s the whole topic of 2008 as far as I can see (unfortunate but true) esp. with the return of Detroit & deep house sounds in Europe.
And just a note: I, for one, actually really liked this mix! (except for 2 tracks)
Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 7:48 pm ¶
chrisdisco wrote:
@jeremy: that’s just rubbish. i went through all my posts on RA to check how many times i’ve mentioned the blog. the grand total is 4 times. and all have been directly relevant to the discussion. i would hardly call that a case of ’spamming RA forums for months’. be reasonable jeremy.
you’d obviously have a much better idea on how general a problem spamming is on RA, but from what i’ve seen - especially in the threads on reviews - is bland assertions/statements or unwarranted bagging of the reviewer. this is not debate.
my point is that people seem to be mainly talking/shouting past/at each other, rather than engaging in any kind of discussion.
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 5:22 am ¶
PC/dysconnect wrote:
1) Re: Jeremy’s comment - blogspam?! Ouch. That smarts, Jeremy. The idea of linking is one of the inherently fantastic things about ‘reading’ on the ‘net. I never mention my blog stuff unless it’s relevant and/or I don’t want to make the same points over and over. I go out of my way to be very, very clear about what I say and make points that are productive, that add to the debate. Here’s another: I think your comment is unfair and a bit rude.
2) bluetooth headset: totally gay (in the Eric Cartman sense of the word). Ross Noble even made a joke about that very thing the other night….
I guess it’s parallel to that old saying:
‘Real friends don’t let their friends dress up as The Crow’
3) I think everyone’s nailed on this thread that KS has always been a populist with occasional (but occasionally egregious) lapses of taste (the headset just being the most recent example).
4) To me the issue is NOT that he uses Ableton or whatever - I never really saw this as a big trope in ‘Defensive Detroit Discourse’ outside Theo’s arguments against loss of revenue. The issue to me appears to be that of the Detroit mythology. The purple/papal image that Ronan uses is on point (though the condom description… humm) - it’s Detroit ‘fans’ and their crypto-racist reverence for the ‘inherently soulful’ ‘black innovators’ that I find so feekin’ irritating. But I mentioned this as part of my ‘blogspam’.
And yet, there IS something sort of interesting about this whole thing, don’t you think? When proggers like Paolo Mojo and quasi-proggers like Lee Burridge play much more ‘tasteful’ (parentheses intended) selections than someone of apparently unassailable legend, well then, where’s the good sense and order in the world
?
What next? And are the rumours of Tiesto playing Sascha Dive true?
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 6:24 am ¶
rhak wrote:
Pc, i see where you’re coming from with the questionable use of ‘black/soul innovators’. Here in belgium we have quite a deep house scene going and none of the local (and gifted) producers or dj’s is black, neither from detroit.
There’s two things that i think are important though:
- the level of association: anything detroit will always be connected to the belleville three; anything detroit will always be somehow connected to soul (this happens even to detroit garagerock bands). To one extent is horrible for any discussion if this thing happens too much, to the other extent it’s a very normal thing
- history and semantics: i think - as others have put it on RA - that soul music is a definite part of the way music evolved in Detroit, it’s what these people were brought up on (and when you read interviews a whole lot of the older dj’s, whatever colour). It is definitely a ‘black culture’ thing as well (cf. the blaxploitation scene) which they are (rightly so) very proud of and which the detroit techno artist (black or white) on occasion have worked into their own music. And if you look into soul/funk music you’ll find TONS of cheesey stuff, it’s part of the genre so to speak, not essential but definitely there. So when people say that an artist/his set/his tunes are soulful this can mean a lot of different things. The association to you is that it has a cachet of ‘quality’, to others it might mean a certain jazzy/cheesey thing which you obviously don’t like.
Damn, i’m trying to make an argument but i’m struggling because:
a) it’s not my native tongue
b) it’s a friday afternoon and i still have a lot of work to do
c) i feel silly for arguing on the internet
d) i’d rather be able to talk to you about what you mean by the whole crypto-racist thing because i feel i somehow do agree that there is something inherently wrong to this pinning stuff down. You see the same thing with amy winehouse and jamie lidell: people are surprised they’re white…
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 12:14 pm ¶
PC/dysconnect wrote:
Liddell and Winehouse… yeah, can ‘o worms opening here…
My personal prejudice:
I wish Winehouse would stop self-destructing, ‘cos she’s actually got something really, really original and deep to offer.
Liddell: He’s handsome, charming and a fantastic stage performer. And there were some really good songs on Multiply. But to me the success of this album (and Jim, if it gets successful) is context and placement. What, fundamentally, is Liddell offering that Otis Redding didn’t? But but but - where and how is Liddell offered, and to whom? With him (and no disrespect to the good songs he writes), it’s a matter of ‘the whole package’.
Joss Stone, Alice Russell - the whole Tru Thoughts thing - the Bamboos, etc etc… I tend to think its a ‘whole package’ thing as well, not just respectable reproductions of the funk/soul classics, but by people who are (in Zoolander voice) ‘Very, very, extremely, very very goodlooking.’
In this way, I don’t think Sharon Jones can be squared with that circle… but she and Winehouse?
I mention all this at length to get at some kind of ideas of authenticity, the ‘real McCoy’, the ‘REAL Slim Shady’…etc
Roisin Murphy can construct a convincing disco record, but there’s a big difference between her and Donna Summer…
…but perhaps this all comes down to aesthetic prejudices and nothing more. Authenticity is such a bogus idea anyway, or… disreputable, at least. I’m reminded of European generation a la Tintin who collect ‘Authentic African Masks’ and so forth.
The nub with Detroit is the origin myth - of which Derrick May is the queen perp.
‘Belleville 3′ and 1st generation aside, how come CC isn’t/hasn’t really pushed himself as a Detroit artist?
My answer: ‘cos he’s just too much of a vital force, and too relevant - his voice is so broad, and his tastes are aggressively eclectic.
Derrick May, on the other hand, just kept banging the old ‘Hi Tek Soul (TM)’ gong until a lot of fans bought the package. But here’s the thing: the fans REALLY want to buy this package - why?
Until Berlin became cool, nobody wanted to claim anything like a ‘German origin myth’ of techno.
And house? Well, the house guys never seemed interested in creating this ‘myth of origins’ idea, then pandering to its converts. This is something that’s peculiar to Detroit techno. There are complex reasons for it, and many reasons to respect a lot of the great records and artists that have come from Detroit (who I do not denigrate), but in Melbourne at least, there became this unwholesome hero-worship of black innovators. This has its parallels in hip-hop culture… but I’m ‘rambling’ now…
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 12:40 pm ¶
jeremy wrote:
Peter, there’s a big diff between someone like yourself who follows the argument and posts relevant quotes and links from their own stuff, and does so in good faith, to inform other people oiut of genuine interest, and blatantly drinking the hatorate. “oh wow i am genuinely surprised this thread is actually interesting. well done everyone.” That’s one condescending post, Chris.
Like Jacob says, there are people who join in to make things better, and there are people who sit back and say “this sucks”.
Tami says: if you don’t like it, don’t visit. Simple. So just lose the blatant anti-RA attitude, it’s tiresome. and we’re supposed to be your friends
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 12:42 pm ¶
chrisdisco wrote:
i dont like hijacking ronan’s space to continue debating it here, but jeremy i feel i need to reply as i dont think you are being fair.
i’m very willing to admit i have a critical (primarily in the sense of reflective) stance to RA but i certainly don’t have a ‘blatant anti-RA attitude’. while i disagree with some things, on the whole i think i think RA plays a very positive role in the scene and as you rightly said, it has definitely come a long way.
also, i completely agree with what you and jacob are saying - there are people who join in to improve things and those who sit back and bitch. but i dont agree with the conclusions you draw from this. ‘joing in’ and ‘joining RA’ are not the same thing. the central motivation besides starting the ssg blog is precisely that i wanted to start contributing in a positive and sustained manner.
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 1:01 pm ¶
chrisdisco wrote:
it is late at night. those last two lines should have read:
‘joining in’ and ‘joining RA’ are not the same thing. the central motivation behind starting the ssg blog is precisely that i wanted to start contributing in a positive and sustained manner.
also, one other thing jeremy - did i ever say “oh wow i am genuinely surprised this thread is actually interesting. well done everyone.” or are you just putting words in my mouth? (i dont remember saying that).
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 1:22 pm ¶
PC/dysconnect wrote:
Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. RA should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve haters of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue bloggers that provide aid or safe haven to RA haters. Every blogger, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the haters. (Applause.) From this day forward, any blog that continues to harbor or support terrorism…erm… hating on us will be regarded by RA as hostile.
Guys, you both gots to chill… so, who wants to talk about the Triplets of Belleville?
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 2:35 pm ¶
rhak wrote:
i didn’t like that movie…
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 7:25 pm ¶
jeremy wrote:
I wish it was just a movie
Re: forum. Fair enough. Points made & points taken. I just piped up in the first place because dismiss the whole forum as “rubbish” is a bit black & white and dismissive. I’m not saying the forum at RA is great, but neither is it garbage either. It’s somewhere in the middle. Good bits & bad bits.
A bit like this KS mix. Or a bit like the entire output of Michigan. Or Europe. Or the retro-purist Don Williams set I heard the other day (which would have benefited from a fedde le grand track or two)
I blame George Bush for making us all so uncomfortable with these grey areas in life
Admittedly it’s much easy to buy into a prepackaged ideology and go to war against “euro cheese” or “Detroit purism” or whatever. Creates a nice argument, a debate. Esp. if you add in a few hot button topics like race and nationality. Certainly gets you noticed. Dogmatic inflexibility is respected even
But the messy contradictions of alternative stories need to be in there too. So the myth can change. From a musician’s POV, I also wonder how much the genuine pockets of creativity around are related to these received myths
Posted 28 Mar 2008 at 10:10 pm ¶
PC/dysconnect wrote:
Point the last well taken, J. Did you know about the controversy surrounding the most recent Kool Keith/Dr Octagon album? This is really interesting…
…ex-Melbournians One Watt Sun re-did the album after the original producer Fanatik J apparently turned in a steaming pile of doings (well, that’s one side). Keith went along with the re-do, but the tide turned, and eventually, you get all these people dissing and blaming ‘the nobodies’ who re-did the album. Have a read:
An interview with KK where he plays down the whole thing:
http://www.ravemagazine.com.au/content/view/7228/30/
A hatchet job that sparked the whole controversy and clearly sympathises with the original producer (and describes the Avalanches as “one-hit wonders”):
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/music/kool_keith_cd_scam_exposed/Content?oid=291467
And the Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_of_Dr._Octagon
I interviewed DJ T the other day, and he’s been reading some book about the ‘polarity of thought’ (didn’t catch the title) - where humans turn the mess of experience into either/or - who knows, could be Kirkegaard.
But it’s interesting - I guess we’re all complicit in wedging, and even taking positions contrary to our genuinely held opinions in order to shake the lil dialectic.
Posted 29 Mar 2008 at 12:42 am ¶
chrisdisco wrote:
fair enough jeremy. the original post of mine was a bit of line, so sorry about that.
anyway, back to belleville, what has always struck me is that the peeps who seem to most want to defend and promote the simplistic line of ‘detroit started techno’ rarely actually come from detroit. so why do they need the myth of detroit origin? to be honest, i can see why a lot of original detroiters need the detroit myth. many are being left behind and need to assert their continuing relevance. moreover, i think that there is a really important socio-political (and most likely racial) dimension, which is closely tied up with the nature of detroit itself.
time for some genealogies i say…
Posted 29 Mar 2008 at 1:29 am ¶
Isbjorn wrote:
I noticed people can’t spell the word ‘dj’ in the plural properly. It’s ‘djs’, people, not ‘dj’s’. Cheers
Posted 30 Mar 2008 at 12:40 am ¶
todd wrote:
i still don’t want to download this podcast
Posted 30 Mar 2008 at 3:58 am ¶