Empty (or not?)

The latest “Month In Techno” column by Phil Sherburne makes for gloomy reading. I’ve felt a bit this way lately but I held off writing a blog post about it because I figured it was a personal mood, not the wider mood in techno. As regards writing I’ve wondered about what’s the point for ages, and bored you all with my posts about it!

Last week I posted this on ILM: “Maybe forums have just replaced the need for reviews entirely to the point that people don’t actually have any respect for somebody doing a review, because why would they, everyone is literally a critic in that they sit down and type their opinions about stuff constantly.”

What do you think? Are you feeling depressed about dance music? Or at least about dance music on the net?

I love tons of new releases, I’m still buying as much as ever. But I don’t enjoy talking about dance music online anything like I did a couple of years ago. Something new needs to come along to replace “minimal” as the hyped genre and the genre people love to hate. Not because it’s musically bereft (the term means nothing musically anymore) but just to blow away the cobwebs. It’s been a long time since people had something new to argue about.

As a result the the tiny patches of internet reserved for dance music discussion are looking a bit too weatherbeaten. But is the internet representative of anything wider? I’m not so sure. You could frame any downbeat article in the last 20 years with negative world news stories, no matter what you were writing about. And musically I think dance music has been quite strong this year, albeit without too many big gobsmacking ideas.

I also have to say as much as I enjoyed the article and am glad somebody had the courage to actually stand up and ask some questions, I think some of Phil’s comments seem a bit too hasty. For instance: “A party culture (and drug culture) predicated upon parties that never end can only result in a music that thumps dully away without surprise or meaningful variation.”

I mean, how do you go from writing about minimal for so long to this? I’m not saying somebody should be a lifer, just that if you really believe the above, then surely all dance music ever made would be worthless? Why would a longer party mean less meaningful music, when people have been having hedonistic parties to techno for years upon years? When did the music lose its meaning? Why?

I sometimes feel that it’s purism that’s paradoxically in vogue at the moment, with half of the techno world spending the last year or so falling over itself to denounce laptops, minimal, drugs, and rely the kind of lazy dismissals that a jazz or classical critic would use to eviscerate every techno record ever made.

The manifestos collected from producers at the end of the Month In Techno piece feel like more of this suffocatingly dull trend to me. Isn’t it just completely depressing to see so many producers rhyming off criticisms of dance music that most people would have thought were dead and buried, eg it’s not made with “real instruments”, people who like it take a lot of drugs, it’s easy to make etc etc.

And these criticisms are coming from inside the genre! It’s practically self hatred. All I’m saying is I’m glad most of the producers quoted make records that are more interesting than their manifestos. I mean, this probably seems very harsh, but I just wish people in dance music could talk about in ways that acknowledged that sleaziness, questions of inauthenticity, drugs, and hedonism were all intrinsic irremovable parts.

Dance music is not about “hard work” or “real instruments” or brainy manifestos, it’s much harder to pin down than that. As a writer I know how maddening that is, but this is why so many of these rules that are imported from outside the world of electronic music for these manifestos just don’t work for me.

In the middle of all the straitjacketing, Cristian Vogel grabbed my attention with the best manifesto of the lot, the only one that seemed challenges the reader rather than slot them back into a familiar groove. The cryptic brevity of his words says more than Matthew Herbert’s entire autobiography.

Vogel’s manifesto also serves as a good answer to the questions of why there might be a crisis in all these online techno discussions, because ultimately it doesn’t mean anything, because the more discussion there is the more the meaningless hits you. That’s not to say we should all give up, but we’re living in a gigantic sea of opinion now, it’s got to be disheartening from time to time, especially if you’re a journalist.

Cristian Vogel (No Future, Tresor)
http://www.no-future.com/vogel_microsite/

Techno music is not important; it is nothing.

Techno music can strive to be as empty as possible.

Techno music can be poetry about the ecstasy in the universe.

Techno music should give awareness, not take it away.

Techno music is too good at describing our cyclic existence.

DJs should strive to enlighten.

Techno music needs to be kind and rest.”

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. flashfonic.de on 17 Jul 2008 at 7:42 am

    […] Ronan sieht die Frustration eher im Schreiben über Musik (und weniger in der Musik selbst). Die Begeisterung über eine Platte, ein Live- oder DJ-Set in Worte zu packen, ist eben eine schwierige Angelegenheit, die wohl nur selten so gelingt, dass der eigene Enthusiasmus am Ende auch beim Leser ankommt. Einer der Kommentare bringt es auf den Punkt: After all, house is a feeling, not a paragraph. […]

Comments

  1. RoK wrote:

    In my opinion, dance, house or techno music is something which should be enjoyed on a dancefloor, not discussed in blog posts. But ofcourse I always enjoy reading proper reviews like yours, I could generally do without the comments on the standard blogsite though..

  2. Ronan wrote:

    You’re right Robin…

    I mean, the reason I’ve posted a bit less lately is that I haven’t been out that much, and I don’t like reading blogs where if you didn’t know you’d think that dance music was never played in clubs or was not attached to any club scene whatsoever…

    But I know all blogs and this one can be like that, and this one has been that way a bit of late…

  3. Tom wrote:

    Think Sherburne could do with taking a break from techno for a month.

    I sometimes think with the age of internet/message boards/blogs etc. people can talk about music to the point where it stops having any meaning. Sometimes when I’m having a great moment enjoying music at home or in a club it strikes me how little any of it relates to the experience. I find the whole internet thing compulsive, rather than enjoyable and the fact that it’s infused with so much negativity makes it even more joyless. So many of the arguments about what’s good/soulful etc basically amount to trying to out-reason someone else’s emotions. After all, house is a feeling, not a paragraph.

  4. Tom wrote:

    I should add I’m as guilty as anyone else!

  5. Ronan wrote:

    “So many of the arguments about what’s good/soulful etc basically amount to trying to out-reason someone else’s emotions”

    I really agree with that, as weird as that might seem for someone who writes about music…

  6. RoK wrote:

    Come to think of it, I think the 5% of the people who are discussing all things house and techno on the internet are probably the ones who are hugging the wall during a party. The other 95% couldn’t give a shit about whether a record is soulful or who it’s by.. just my two cents..

    and yes, i do dance hahaha

  7. Ronan wrote:

    I don’t think I’ve ever read or written a blog post about dancing….and yet I enjoy it as much as the music.

  8. john osborn wrote:

    its nice to read about the music one likes, but one should never take what he/she reads more seriously than the love or fun that he/she has with music -whatever genre it is. bottom line is if you like something - then like it, if you don’t - dont. but never over analyze it, just enloy it.

  9. frankie wrote:

    There have always been and always will be negative pieces. At times in the past they have been deserved (in my opinion, but not in others). At the moment I don’t think its deserved and don’t really understand stuff like this, perhaps it comes down to an unconscious feeling about things, sometimes its there for a person, sometimes its not, it can’t be forced.

    I’ve felt it in the past, wasn’t into what was happening particularly, I look back at those times now, and was it me? or was it the music/scene? It was neither, it was that I didn’t connect with what was happening at that time. I didn’t mind, thats when i discovered a lot of older music, the pre-war pop, the hapa haole, further into western swing, the beginnings of getting into stuff like lautari

    Today, I do connect with whats happening, i think the music is great. But then I am the kind of person that likes drugs and laptops

  10. Joe H wrote:

    “In my opinion, dance, house or techno music is something which should be enjoyed on a dancefloor, not discussed in blog posts”

    I disagree, for me it starts on the dance floor but ends up getting talked about on blogs this is part of the reason why i love reading other peoples blogs &(thoughts on music in general) because i can’t get enough & why i blog myself. House and techno music is a feeling within i think you either feel it or you dont there’s no inbetween or if there is i dont know any people on that level. For me dance music in general is and has been a massive part of my life for a good 13 years, to say that it should not be discussed on blogs or should be kept strictly for the dance floor is not way forward.By this do you mean we would be better of with no advertisements, reviews, mixes & interviews? or do you not like reading about dance music in general. It’s just like any other genre of music be it rock, pop, indie etc people will write about it as its happening now. For as long as i remember i have been pushing dance music on to my friends via mix tapes taped radio etc. For me dance music is a release and a great mood changer. Its not just a love its part of my life.and then to see Vogel write this “Techno music is not important; it is nothing” is he just trying to come across care free and cool or does he really mean this ? for an established techno producer / DJ like him to state this is shooting himself in the foot is it not? As for the negativity yes there is far too much, reviewers need to leave all the negativity the hell alone its boring! who wants to read about how dull a record is and then have to read reasons why not to buy the record is there not enough negativity in the world without bringing it on to something that should be fun & enjoyable.

  11. Tomo wrote:

    ‘As for the negativity yes there is far too much, reviewers need to leave all the negativity the hell alone its boring! who wants to read about how dull a record is and then have to read reasons why not to buy the record is there not enough negativity in the world without bringing it on to something that should be fun & enjoyable’.

    this kind of condradicting yourself, if its ok to talk and write about dance music on the internet, why is it so wrong to write a negative review of a record. surely, the person writing the piece should feel free in expressing their views on the record they’re reviewing. It would be a pretty boring place if we just read reviews of records getting 5/5.

  12. Joe H wrote:

    Yes but some reviewers/ bloggers seem to get kicks out of giving negative reviews & do it far to often, there’s plenty of music out there to find and give a good review instead of moaning about the state of house and techno and how its in decline. It’s as if people are only looking for the downfalls in releases these days. For me personally if i dont like a release i wont write about it, dont get me wrong i’m not saying writers should never give bad reviews because i’m not. Somewhere inbetween is good. Or perhaps its just me. I know that i would find it much much harder to write a negative review than a positive one this is because i look on dance music as something i really enjoy to start finding reasons why i dont like it would be the end for me.

  13. dbzz wrote:

    Someone has already said it, but I would think all of us online on blogs, forums and even websites like RA and ITM, would make up no more then 10% of the whole dance/clubbing community. Its very easy to get caught up in the internet, to actually start to believe that blogger’s and forum member’s opinions on music, fashion, clubs, festivals, djs and djing and all the other “hot topics”, actually represent the community as a whole. They don’t. The vast majority of people go out to have a good time and dance to music that is fun and sounds nice to the novice or expert ears. To take some drugs or drink some music and have fun with their friends.

    The internet is just a place where people can voice there opinions, there may be way too many opinions out there, but that is not the problem. The problem is the weight people give these opinions. I mean I dont think anyone can argue that the best times they’ve had in a club where in their early days, before they were caught up with the quality of the mixing by the dj, or the freshness of the tracks, or whether the music had soul.

    If I could of added a manifesto to Phil’s article it would of been:

    “The experience of being in a club, listening to and dancing to a dj, has to be the most important “gauge” of our scene.”

    If this were the case I don’t think things would seem as bad as they do.

  14. dbzz wrote:

    End of first para should read:

    To take some drugs or drink some beer, and hear music and have fun with their friends.

  15. RoK wrote:

    Hi Joe, maybe I should have stated: never forget that this music is supposed to be fun. The fun factor is something I miss in a lot of blogposts. Although Theo Parrish might think I’m not supposed to enjoy it ;-) (see a previous post by Ronan)

  16. todd wrote:

    i forgot how much i enjoy philip’s writing, great stuff. (joakim’s we’re the best !)

  17. Ronan wrote:

    dbzz……I could not agree with you any more fully….that’s exactly what I think about the piece.

  18. Ronan wrote:

    “to see Vogel write this “Techno music is not important; it is nothing” is he just trying to come across care free and cool or does he really mean this ? for an established techno producer / DJ like him to state this is shooting himself in the foot is it not?”

    I guess Joe he’d argue something doesn’t have to be cosmically important for you to love it.

    I can’t put too many words in his mouth but to me he means there are so many opinions and ideas and no scientific way of proving any of them that techno only exists as a few million different versions of those, these discussions, the arguments, the opinions, grains of sand really.

    I think it’s hard to say something like that without people saying “oh what’s this shit, pass me my revolver”, but it’s not purposely aloof or anything in my opinion. I don’t think he’s rubbishing techno, he’d say the same about any other music or probably any art, he means it’s nothing fixed. That’s my interpretation anway.

  19. Stef wrote:

    I think one of the problem with people who write about music on the internet is that they vastly overestimate their influence. This post isn’t directed at you, Ronan, rather the people who think they’re doing this great service of unmasking charlatans or music that’s popular which they feel doesn’t deserve attention; that without them dance music would implode.

    When you’re on the internet as much as us it’s very easy to get stuck in that bubble and forget that for the vast majority of clubbers the internet is at best a distraction and more generally something that has very little impact on their lives. I know for me and I’d say a large percentage of people who like me aren’t promoters, djs, producers or bloggers that my friends and the people I go out with have far more impact on what I listen to than any form of media. I will pay far more attention to a recommendation from a person who knows me and what I like and vice versa; this is something that almost never gets mentioned in the rush to blame ‘boosterism’ or ‘the media’ for the terrible state of dance music in all these negative articles.

    I don’t need some crusader to reveal the ‘truth’ to me about music. Myself and everyone I know are perfectly capable of making our minds up about the music we listen to on a regular basis. That’s not to say that I don’t like reading about music, it’s always nice to hear different opinions but it’s also just as easy to ignore them which is something that seems to get forgotten in diatribes against the supposed all-pervasive negative effects of the internet on music.

  20. reuben a. wrote:

    I agree with Stef in that reviewers overestimate their influence. I especially think this is true of sites like Pitchfork, who seem to think the musical map (at least in North America) is somehow dependent on their writing. And who knows, this might just be the case in certain circles, yet it certainly does not speak for the whole.

    I think this sort of writing contributes to an enormous amount of bias, rendering the musical climate malleable. It was Dance Punk in ‘03, Freak Folk in ‘04, Wham City in ‘07, and then there’s the ill-named blog-house, which appears to be on its last breath (hopefully). Half the time it seems writers are completely oblivious as to the actual merit of the works they review. They go into a piece with no conception of its regional implications. This is especially true of dance music, which relies almost solely on active engagement rather than home listening, the latter being more fitting of the traditional indie rock sites like Pitchfork champion.

    Such instances are very much tied to the fact that Internet writing is eradicating local scenes in lieu of imagined ones, which seem to exist due to the material that is written about them (by bloggers, sites, etc.) rather than actual involvement in them. This has been the role of music writing like that of Pitchfork all throughout the decade. It’s downright institutional.

    What made music like House so fresh and appealing during their inception was the fact that they were locally based scenes, much like Techno, No Wave, Punk, et al. Its appeal was primarily in engagement, a personal relation with the music and the people associated with it, not to mention the setting. Yet this has changed with rising technology. It’s a lot easier for a person to create something new and meaningful, yet it is twice as easy for it to be ignored. Locality is a superfluous term in this age, and it seems dance music is particularly falling victim to this.

  21. JF wrote:

    dbzz has summed it up to an absolute tee!!
    I often think what some parties would be like if I didn’t know the tracks being played, wasnt quietly critical of an old track being played or wasn’t listening for bass cuts and loops etc. Also I do feel pretty negative about the whole ’scene’ at the moment. There are way, way too many tracks being released. The outcome in the main being very average. It’s a shame but I shall live by the words of dbzz henceforth.

  22. Stef wrote:

    Note to self: read whole thread before replying.

  23. pete wrote:

    I think Philip Sherburne and most other writers/critics are just stuck in the techno fishbowl. You have to write about something in the end, you can’t just talk about hi hats all day long. As much as I like his writing, I disagree with him and think 2008’s been a great year for house and techno. There’s nothing revolutionary going on but I think the music been’s excellent nonetheless. I guess the excitement about minimal is fading away, and like you said Ronan, maybe it’s time for something new, but for the time being I’m pretty content.

  24. philip sherburne wrote:

    hey everyone, thanks for your thoughts & comments; i’m glad at the very least that the piece has managed to spark some serious discussion, something i’ve certainly felt has been lacking on many of my usual forums/messageboards/mailinglists of late.

    just to quickly clarify a few things — i don’t think that 2008 has been bad for techno at all, and despite my own depressive tendencies, i’m as committed to the music as ever. (and like someone above said, i also use my periodic frustrations as good reminders to get the hell out of the fishbowl and listen to other music, much of which i never write about (but probably should).) i wrote this piece mainly after perceiving a general sense of ennui and anomie among musicians, clubbers, and critics — much of which was encapsulated in the (largely misguided) debate over “minimal,” but not entirely. maybe it’s because i’m getting older, and many of my friends are as well, but so many discussions i’m involved with seem to turn to the problems in the music and the scene. there’s a restlessness afoot, which i think ultimately should be very positive; this piece, including what admittedly could be viewed as a negative snapshot of the state of affairs, was intended to be a contribution to a discussion about what could make things better.

  25. PC/dysconnect wrote:

    I’d like at this point to split things up a little, and talk about the various aspects of electronic music, how they mesh, and how they’re mediated.

    1) the music itself: I think 2008 has been an incredibly strong one for production. A lot of beautifully, carefully, artfully made records out, and several magnificent albums, most of which are non-dogmatic. Production is in rude health (over-production is a problem, but nonetheless)

    2) its dancefloor outlet: perhaps people from different parts of the world could tell me otherwise, but from where I’m standing, the clubs/venues issue is the weakest link. My own doom/gloom, c.o. an Irishman far more uptight than Ronan: ‘The best lack all conviction/while the worst are full of passionate intensity.’ I keep thinking of this Yeats line again and again. It’s *really* difficult for people to put on interesting and/or adventurous parties. Irregular venues, interesting concepts, bold bookings and ideas like chill-out rooms - all gone. Clubbing has become a slave to its habits: deeply conservative, a place of ‘permissive repression’ for people to consume, consume, consume. And part of what reflects this is that you just don’t meet the cool people out that you used to… but I’ll also concede that I’m an old misanthropic curmudgeon

    3) the medium, the message: people aren’t selling records, digital hasn’t taken up the slack AND a whole bunch of DJs are playing purloined mp3s out. This is fucking outrageous, if you’re being paid for your gigs.

    4) the mediator, the modulator, the mixing desk: we have all these incredibly powerful tools now… so how come they just become an excuse for FX mixing, rocking the cue button, and overly-interventionist tweaking of dull records?

    …so back to the point… when I’m at home, or out walking, listening to electronic music in 2008, it’s not at all problematic. It’s wonderful, life-giving, energising, inspiring stuff - and I love it just as much as I always did.

    …but when I go out, I get the shits. And it sucks that all the record stores have closed. And that clubs are ruled by contract bouncers, methed up bogans and coke queens.

    As for this post, well, it’s apposite, but it’s also a piece of churnalism. I mean, instead of writing about some kind of pervasive ‘lack’, why not point out some of the things that you/we’ve been enthusiastic about.

    …and last of all, Anomie and Ennui is a great name for a remix duo!

  26. dbzz wrote:

    I think a lot of people here represent a large portion of people out there in “the scene” at the moment. People I talk to, close friends and randoms all seem to be becoming more and more jaded. I constantly hear, and read for that matter, “Oh what are these young people wearing” “Oh what is this electro crap” “Oh look how off their heads they are”, it just amazes me how closed minded the scene is becoming as a whole.

    I remember one of the main reasons I started to love going out and this electronic music, was how open minded and accepting everyone involved with it was. It didn’t matter if you had 10 pils for the night, if you were gay, fat, poor, rich, of any different race, religion, if you had soul, it all didn’t matter. Everyone was brought together by the common goal of trying to have a good time. These days it feels like everyone is out to judge others, and so much time is spent looking for something to judge others on. What happened to being open minded to anything and anyone, and any music.

    I understand that for the majority of people their clubbing life has a use by date, and maybe as a collective the scene is getting older together, and hence more jaded (its a natural characteristic of all humans to become more jaded as you age, as you experience more of life’s disappoints). Maybe the younger much more open minded clubbers aren’t entering the scene at as rapid a rate as they were 5 or 6 yrs ago.

    I do strongly believe that the mnml debate (not mnml itself) has had a very divisive and negative effect on the scene. A negative effect that can only be overcome by everyone coming together and getting back to the original reasons we all started going out, to have a good time!

    Keep up the good work Ronan, and Phillip, I love to read what you guys and others like Jeremy Armitage and Todd Burns have to say and contribute to the scene. But everyone needs to remember that these guys, and anyone for that matter, represent the opinions of one person.

  27. dbzz wrote:

    Wow, a lot that post actually comes across as fairly jaded. Pot, kettle, black anyone?

    But is actually possible to critique the scene, without sounding jaded? Is it possible to try and improve something by pointing out the negative characteristics of it, without coming across as jaded? Especially on the internet.

  28. mikethehard wrote:

    I do not believe that, generally speaking, the opinion of both those who write and read blogs, forums and online journalism relating to electronic music is representative of the majority of those who enjoy it,, pay to go to clubs and buy music.

  29. James wrote:

    Terrific post, Ronan. Still digesting Sherburne’s column and the remarks here - but the first thing that comes to mind is: this ‘ennui’ certainly isn’t unique to techno.

    So a bit of a ramble…

    I could rattle off dozens of articles in recent design magazines where, if you replace ‘design’ with ‘electronic music’, you’d have something damned close to Sherburne’s article - as well as responses along the lines of “So what is the point of ______ criticism?”

    Same for architecture. And film. And same for writing and journalism - a lot of hand-wringing about the same thing: digital media has leveled the playing field, and it’s getting awfully crowded and noisy - so where are the great new things? Or are we just increasingly atomized? How do we distinguish between the amateur and professional? Does it even matter?

    The same tired argument about digital vs. analogue (and the fallout) is being held in every discipline. At some point, hopefully this will be asked and answered, then shot and buried out in the yard. My answer is that they are different skill sets with different criteria.

    Whenever people start breaking out the manifestos, I get a little nervous . . . reading the better manifestos in Sherburne’s piece reminded me of Bruce Mau’s 1998 Manifesto for Growth - it’s a little goofy, but a lot of the same ideas are here, too. I like thinking about techno as a design problem (limited parameters, clear objective).

    . . . and of course, there are all the Modernist manifestos from the 1920s arguing that new technology (radio! film! telegraph!) would erase all class systems and usher in great new changes in art (which happened for a while) and social Utopia (which didn’t pan out). Vertov, Tschichold, Rodchenko, the Stenberg Brothers, Moholy-Nagy - those guys were serious optimists and techno-fetishists and they would have killed for the means of production and distribution we have today. So why are our manifestos overwhelmingly prescriptive and negative?

    What is the point of _______ criticism? I think it’s to get people talking and arguing and, yes, commenting. With any luck, someone will get so hot under the collar that they’ll go off and make something fantastic to prove their point.

    Ack, I always bang on for far too long in your comments area. I’m going to stop now.

    Anyway, the point I wanted to make: a broader context might be useful.

  30. Jacob wrote:

    The thing about the internet is that 90% of the time people don’t actually WANT to understand what the last guy said. Forums are mostly a way to digitally recreate the experience of being locked in a room with several thousand opinionated coke users.

  31. Stef wrote:

    ‘Maybe the younger much more open minded clubbers aren’t entering the scene at as rapid a rate as they were 5 or 6 yrs ago.’

    In fairness, I remember people saying the same thing 5-6 years ago and they were pretty much right because at that time the dance scene (at least in Ireland and the UK) was imploding. Just remember how bad things were in 2002 and 2003. In some ways the way things are today reminds me of just before that time but then again a crash may not be a bad thing, a lot of good came from the last one.

  32. aNikdote wrote:

    Beautifully put Jacob. One of the main reasons why I rarely bother posting on anything anymore. Or maybe it’s because I’ve been listening to the Anomie & Ennui remix of “25 Jaded Bitches” too often…

    I try incredibly hard not to get sucked into the vortex of paralysis by analysis that seems to exist within the electronic (and many other) music communities. The more you analyse music or the context within which you experience it, the less musical it inherently becomes. When you move past enjoying the experience to analysing the experience itself, the clarity and power is diminished.

    I’m all for quality critique and reflection, but never at the expense of the enjoyment.

    Dance jaded bitches, dance!

  33. mikeyro wrote:

    ignorance is bliss…remember the first time you heard “that sound”? I’ll bet you didn’t analyze bass cuts, or over-abundance of high hat hits, or whether or not the artist was being pretentious with his/her track selection. I second aNikdote’s notion…dance jaded.

  34. pablo/beaner wrote:

    just to throw in my two cents, but i dont think i’ve ever been more excited about house and techno, which is what i love about the genre(s). and while i personally may be in the minority when it comes to the mnml debate on the interwebs (i make my living from it and i love it more than ever), i have to take issue with what philip said about the length of the parties somehow contributing to a problem. in fact, closer to the ends of the lengthiest parties here in berlin are always when i hear the most breathtaking, risk taking, interesting, genrebending, mind melting, weirdo wonktastic techno and house tracks out there. no blaming it on the drugs either, since im usually just drunk. to me, the length and endurance of the parties in berlin are an important influence on how house and techno have changed in the minds of a lot of producers themselves. you think ricardo would have made ricardo music without crazy afterhours? (bad example, im sure he wouldve made something equally as good)…

  35. mikethehard wrote:

    I’ve always had a kinda (lose) theory about the cyclical nature of youth culture surrounding popular music and at its core is an idea that one form of music will be more popular than any other at a given time.
    I think for me, the trance explosion at the end of the 90s was due to alot of kids who had been into Oasis and Blur, suddenly all wanting a little more and going to nightclubs and discovering E at the same time. I would argue that the downturn a few years ago and subsequent rise of minimal was largely the same people who got intro it through trance, prog or hardhouse a few years previously. I saw this downturn seperating those who were in it for the long haul and thsoe who simply wern’t.

    I *think* there’s less kids getting into clubbing than when I did (see above). But, of course this could be an illusion of getting older.

    I shall predict, if I may, that as the kids who are listening to Razorlight, the Klaxons, (or whoever the hell they are all listening to these days! ;) get further towards their late teens in the coming years that Clubbing, in the broad sense, will grow fast again. The music that they latch onto, or the artists which are the catalyst for the change remains to be seen. (in the late 90s it was the Chemical Brothers, Prodigy and FatboySlim that provided the conduit from indie to electronic).

    This applies to the UK in my opinion, but perhaps not right round the world.

  36. chrisdisco wrote:

    @mikethehard: yeah, i had a kind of similar theory with melbourne. there was a real boom in the scene end of the 90s, early 00s and i think a big part of it was from people wanting to try E. and at that time, if you wanted to try E, it meant going to a dance party, of some sort. these days, in contrast, E has become a lot more popularised and is not so strictly associated with the dance scene. people who want to try it will have it at a pub or a mate’s house or wherever.

  37. mike d wrote:

    I, too, took issue with this comment: “A party culture (and drug culture) predicated upon parties that never end can only result in a music that thumps dully away without surprise or meaningful variation.”

    Sherburne’s comment here saddens me, mostly because I like a lot of his criticism. What right does he have to pass moral judgment on the people who help pay his bills? Granted, I’ve only seen a microscopic corner of the dance music world (by comparison, that is), but the all-night parties I’ve been to were more refreshing than jading.

    In high school, Basement Jaxx were just as fun for dancing as any of the punk records I loved at the time. As long as my friends show up at parties with mp3s or turntables or drum sets, I’ll keep dancing. Blog-house, frog-house, whatever.

    Oh, and maybe this is a credit to Mr. Fitzgerald more than anyone else, but the comments on this blog (and, in dance music blogs generally) tend to be more carefully crafted than any I read on the internet. Everyone up there above me: you have said some wise things.

    Also–if any of the producers responding to Mr. Sherburne’s call for manifestos would like to hear of some DJs still using wax and decks, I would be happy to mail them a long list of blogs and names. For Pete’s sake, guys, you’re on the internet. Reality shouldn’t be THAT far away.

  38. dari wrote:

    just to come back to the Sherburne discussion…

    what strikes me is that he only asks
    more or less established artists and other players to play the manifesto game.

    Obviously they are gonna voice their genre-specific worries. I’m sure if he had asked people on the other side of the DJ booth, answers would have been more positive overall (but with less depth probably, but in the case of average Joe clubbers does their weekly dance music consumption demand profound reflexions require profound reflexion and engagement? probably not!)

    I was surprised how elitist and close-minded some answers from DJs, producers and other players could be: most of the technological advances which have undoubtedly enabled broader diffusion of their music (be it an mp3 on myspace, or an impromptu laptot liveset at an afterparty) are not given the credit they deserve. Instead they are systematically put down and their negative aspects emphasized. Of course over-compression sucks, virtual synths are never on par with the real thing, and improper mastering is very very annoying but come on DJ and producers, amongst these people bouncing to your set in the club or the techno stage, how many people do you think give a damn about these details? Not many at 02:42 am!

    So overall the manifestos could be seen as subtle indicators of the fears and concerns of the happy few which make a living from e-music. Obviously their outlook will be different that an average clubber. But it seems like these existential problems are recurrent within the scene: when it’s not minimal, it’s digital downloads, laptops or compression , soon it’s going to be the house revival and the deep vibe, etc etc.

    I guess its natural to have concerns and it makes said group stronger and united to collectively put down the same things…

  39. Ciaran wrote:

    It is fair to say that most people who go clubbing go because they like that type of music and so do friends. There are only a few who really watch over the internet to find the latest sound, most couldnt give a hoot. It’s the way of acid house and I personally hope it stays that way otherwise the scene would be too boring…

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